It's Thanksgiving, and Dan and Maureen are joined at the holiday table by food writer Helen Rosner to talk turkey (sorry not sorry). But it's not all holiday cheer on this episode: Dan tells Maureen about the texts he's been exchanging with a certain former mayor. Dun dun duuuunnnnnn.
Oh, hello, SaysWhovia. We were just putting out the plates. There’s turkey and pie, and potatoes, and, why, I think we have a little impeachment left in the fridge.
Yes, it’s Thanksgiving! The holiday of feasting! Of pie! Of traffic! Of jumping over the table to wrestle another relative to the ground! Here in SaysWhovia, we celebrate communally. Everyone is invited. Dan and Maureen have been cooking all day and they want you to eat up. And Helen Rosner, food writer for The New Yorker, has stopped by for her annual visit! She talks tradition, family meals, and plays another round of “Would Trump Eat It?”
This episode also contains a Says Who first: AN EXCLUSIVE NEWS STORY. Yes. This is actually true. Telling you more would be spoiling it, but let’s just say… we’re a part of the story now. Not a bit part. Not a sane part. But a part.
Grab a fork. It’s time to get busy.
***
Today's episode includes the track "News Theme 1" by Audionautix, published under the CC3 license.
Dan's tracking impeachment news and sending out updates every day. Sign up at impeachment.fyi
Watch Let it Snow, based on the book co-authored by Maureen November 8 on Netflix!
Maureen's book The Vanishing Stair is OUT NOW. NOW!
Support Says Who and become a citizen of SaysWhovia by joining our Patreon today! You really can join for just a dollar. Or more if you want!
Your Intrepid Hosts: Maureen Johnson and Dan Sinker
Our awesome theme is courtesy of Ted Leo
We love Darth
Dan: This episode of Says Who? is brought to you by you. That's right, you. By supporting us @patreon.com/sayswho, your $1 and $2 and $5 and $10 dollars and all the dollars help us make all of this happen. Plus we send cool things to you in return. Not just through your ears but through your mailbox.
Maureen: Like snakes.
Dan: No, not like snakes. No, snakes. There's no snakes.
Maureen: Just like snakes.
Dan: I pack every single thing that we send and we have never sent anyone a snake.
Maureen: Bunch of snakes.
Dan: No snake. patreon.com/sayswho. No snakes.
Maureen: Hello, I am Maureen Johnson. You can watch Let it Snow on Netflix right now. Also, holidays are coming up. Maybe you need presents. How about a book gift. Truly devious. It's a paperback. It's like $7.
Maureen: You could just scoop up a whole couple of them and then drive down the street like Santa and just wing them at people like, "Have a book." And people are like [inaudible 00:01:17]. And you're like, "Happy holidays." Truly devious.
Dan: And hi, I'm Dan. You are potentially listening to this surreptitiously while sitting at the Thanksgiving table. And perhaps there is discussion about the impeachment happening. And perhaps you would like to be caught up with what has been happening and what will be happening in what is going to be a rather lengthy impeachment hearing situation.
Dan: Go to impeachment.fyi and I will send you an email every day ... except for Thanksgiving day and probably the couple of days after that because I have a family that would like to see me sometimes. Impeachment.fyi. Get impeachment news and keep me locked in the basement.
Maureen: Do you want to hear a song?
Dan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Maureen: (singing)
Dan: Wow. Wow.
Maureen: That's pretty good, right?
Dan: Holy cow.
Maureen: I just did that right off the cuff.
Dan: Man, a little Thanksgiving miracle right there.
Maureen: It was pretty good, huh?
Dan: A little turkey fairy and just delivered that right up.
Maureen: (singing)
Dan: Impeachment.fyi.
Drive Thru Kid: Happy Thanksgiving and welcome to McDonald's can I take your order please?
The Passenger: Yeah, I'll get a couple of those ... Hi, kid ... make turkey legs. Like they have at the Ren Fair. I want a couple of those.
Drive Thru Kid: We don't have those big ... Those aren't a thing that we sell. You should know that by now.
The Passenger: Right, it's Thanksgiving though so I'm ordering from the Thanksgiving menu.
Drive Thru Kid: There isn't one.
The Passenger: Hold on let me get a piece of paper on it. Let's see here. Pence wants a vanilla pain. The vanilla pain.
Drive Thru Kid: I don't know what that ... Is that like a window pane or like hurt?
The Passenger: No, I think it's like hurt. He just said vanilla pain.
Drive Thru Kid: That's not food I don't think.
The Passenger: Can I just get that in a cup?
Drive Thru Kid: I don't know what even what it would be. Kind of a vanilla shake.
The Passenger: Can you make it painful?
Drive Thru Kid: Usually.
The Passenger: All right great. I'll take one of those. Pompeo just wants a bucket. So do you have a bucket?
Drive Thru Kid: We don't. We aren't a chicken place. But we do have a very large cup.
The Passenger: All right we'll take that. He'll be happy with that. He'll be cool with that.
Drive Thru Kid: Okay.
The Passenger: Kelly Ann just wants the glass with dipping sauce.
Drive Thru Kid: We could probably make that happen.
The Passenger: Okay. Hey kid?
Drive Thru Kid: Yeah.
The Passenger: So I got to spend my holidays with these people. They're not coming out. We're all in the bunker because of the hearings. He keeps calling it the coup.
Drive Thru Kid: That's not what it is.
The Passenger: Well, I know that and you know that kid. That's what he calls it though. He's just shouting fake news. Because it's not enough sometimes you have to have Thanksgiving with the relatives talking about Trump. Now imagine having to spend it with him.
Drive Thru Kid: I don't want to imagine that actually. I'd rather if you just placed my order and drove through.
The Passenger: Well, I'm trying to place my order, kid. But this is for us for the ... I'll take a Thanksgiving whopper with extra stuffing.
Drive Thru Kid: None of those things.
The Passenger: A pumpkin shake.
Drive Thru Kid: No.
The Passenger: And then glad tidings for all persons and peace on earth on a stable democracy.
Drive Thru Kid: None of those are food items.
Maureen: Welcome to Says Who?, the podcast that isn't a podcast.
Dan: Wow. It's a coping strategy. I am Dan Sinker.
Maureen: I'm Maureen Johnson.
Dan: What is going on?
Maureen: I was trying to jazz it up, Dan, for the holiday.
Dan: Wow, that was some Thanksgiving jazzy. That was something. I don't know what it was.
Dan: Maureen Johnson, where are you right now?
Maureen: You know how they say, "Have a jazzy Thanksgiving." "Yeah, have a jazzy Thanksgiving."
Maureen: Sitting in the dark, Dan. You know why?
Dan: In the dark? Why?
Maureen: I forgot to turn the light on.
Dan: Oh, well that seems easily remedied.
Maureen: I know. It seems pedestrian when you say it like that, Dan. I'm going to go over here and turn on a light. I mean it's Philadelphia, Dan, sitting in the dark. Down here with my dog, you know, for the holiday. For a jazzy Thanksgiving.
Maureen: I'm trying to find this light switch, Dan. You know when you go to a different place you have to find all the light switches? You know what I'm talking about.
Dan: Isn't this the house you grew up in? Did they rewire it at some point?
Maureen: You know. You know how it is, Dan.
Dan: It's super weird. I moved out and then they rewired, and now all the light switches are behind cabinets.
Maureen: Did I ever tell you about the story about the one time I came down to visit and I stopped a giant fire?
Dan: No.
Maureen: Yeah. My parents built like and extension. And they got the room rewired one day. And my mom just happened to tell me, "Oh, and this is where the breakers are."
Maureen: You just heard me zipper up my bag so my dog doesn't eat my stuff in my purse.
Maureen: And I was like, "Okay, I'll never need to know that." And then later that day I was just sitting there on the sofa and then I heard a loud pop. And then smoke and a finger of flame lept out of the wall and then a black line started to run and appear. And what that was was the wiring catching on fire.
Dan: Oh god.
Maureen: And I like jumped out of my seat and threw the breaker within about 20 seconds. And if I hadn't basically the whole back of the house would have burned down.
Dan: Oh my god. Well, Says Whovians if there are stories of almost burning down your childhood home you must be at the Says Who? Thanksgiving special.
Maureen: That's right.
Dan: We're glad you're here.
Maureen: Dan, I could not be more excited about this week's episode. Because usually we're here to talk about the news or to process the news. Oh but this week ...
Dan: Oh no.
Maureen: This week, Dan.
Dan: We'll get there in a moment.
Maureen: I don't want to spoil it for you guys but this week, Dan has delivered.
Dan: Well, first Maureen Johnson. You are in Philadelphia for Thanksgiving. I am here at my home in Chicago. I have two giant turkey legs currently curing so that I can make Disney World styled smoked turkey legs tomorrow.
Dan: It's Thanksgiving. We're going to be joined this episode, Maureen, by Helen Rosner. Lovable food writer Helen Rosner is coming to our Says Who? Thanksgiving.
Dan: But before we get to that and before, Maureen Johnson, we get to the thing. The thing.
Maureen: Oh my god, you guys.
Dan: Before we get to that I just need to talk about Says Who U? for a second. Says who U? for those of you unfamiliar is an initiative that we launched this fall where you take a little bit of time away from screens and do things for the joy of it, for the pleasure of it, or simply to be away from the news for a little bit.
Dan: And a lot of folks go to Facebook and /groups/sayswhovians to share their Says Who U? And Maureen Johnson, yesterday was a banner day in the Says Who? Facebook group because somebody spent their Says Who U? having a Thanksgiving themed photo shoot with their guinea pigs. And it was amazing.
Dan: Janice, who is the moderator of the group, sent an alert out to our family group chat. Being like, "There are guinea pigs in a photo shoot happening in Says Who? right now.
Dan: They're in a little pie pan.
Maureen: I like everything about that.
Dan: I think there's like a little turkey background behind them. That's how you know we have a good group of people involved in this podcast, Maureen Johnson.
Maureen: Oh, I've always known.
Dan: When they're sharing photos of their guinea pigs having a little fall fiesta.
Maureen: Dan ... Oh, my dog Dex just jumped ...
Dan: That's Dexie.
Maureen: Yeah, she's here. She loves it down here in Philly because where we live there are birds and geese and she can look out ... She doesn't get to look out the window as much at home. I mean we have windows but you just sort of see sky ...
Dan: You look up at the sky.
Maureen: ... buildings. Yeah, we live kind of high up so there's not a lot she can see. And here she can stand up on her hind legs and look out the window and see ... My mom has tons of bird feeders so birds fly in all day and squirrels. At night there are raccoons. There's Canadian geese that come in.
Maureen: I mean, she just loves it so she's always on patrols. She's like going from window to window. Making sure the neighbors are where they're supposed to be, and the squirrels are where they're supposed to be. So she's doing her job. I'm really proud of her.
Maureen: Dan, we need to get to it because Says Who? I have been sitting on this for days and I cannot take it anymore. I am so excited.
Dan: All right.
Maureen: I can't even ... You guys. We have Says Who? You need to get a sound effect for this. Says Who? breaking news. We have an exclusive.
Dan: One os those like (singing). One of these really dramatic news themes.
Maureen: This is a Says Who? exclusive.
Dan: Yeah, it is.
Maureen: Go ahead, Dan.
Dan: It is. I feel like we need to back up just a little bit. A few episodes ago, Maureen, both you and I were quite taken with news reports that Rudy Giuliani was thinking about starting an impeachment podcast. And specifically we really hoped that we could either produce his podcast or at least record the official after show.
Dan: And so, we hatched a plan to first procure Rudy Giuliani's phone number. And then to procure a burner phone and propose this idea to him.
Maureen: And it may have sounded like a joke on the podcast but it was deadly serious.
Dan: It was something. So, did we catch people up on the ... I think we'd catch people up on the burner phone side of the equation. Which is it turns out that burner phones ... if you were a fan of the television series the Wire ... burner phones factored into that. You know, cheap, semi disposable cell phones that specifically have disposable phone numbers.
Dan: You buy a phone with minutes inside it already and you pay in cash. And then you can't trace that phone number. That is no longer a thing that you can do. But thankfully, we live in the age of an app called the burner, which does all of the things that a burner phone does but it's just a $5 a month subscription.
Dan: So I signed up for burner and I then reached out to some people who will remain nameless and I was able to procure three phone numbers for Rudy Giuliani. With the large caveat from the person that gave them to me ...
Maureen: I'm going to die. I'm going to have a heart attack while you're telling the story.
Dan: ... that they don't know which one is current and that he switches phone numbers quite frequently.
Dan: So I sent a text not long after that ... and this was right when the hearings began. I actually don't have a record of that text anymore but it something to the effect of like, "Hey, do you want to do a podcast? I do podcasts. Let's do a podcast." And I got no response.
Dan: And then just like a day later, I sent another one. Same level of dumb shittery. And nothing. And then I sent a third a few hours after that. And then I got a response that just said, "Who is this?"
Dan: And I think that's when I DM'ed you, right? Being like, "I don't know what to do now."
Maureen: And I was like talk to them, Dan. It was like you had decided to try and ask someone on a date that you didn't think was ever going to reply. And they did and you just, yeah ... You seemed genuinely stunned.
Dan: Well, it was one of those things where it suddenly dawns on you like, "Oh shit." He's asking who is this.
Maureen: Right.
Dan: Do I actually want to tell ... like up until this point, yes, a burner phone number is fine. It does what it needs to do. That it is untraceable. But as soon as I say who I am, I am no longer untraceable fake phone number or not.
Maureen: And I guess we should clarify that the man you're talking to is former mayor Rudy Giuliani. Currently the President's private lawyer who is doing deals for him on his behalf in Ukraine to potentially try to throw the 2020 election. And he might be under indictment soon. And his friends have been arrested.
Maureen: And what you're saying is do you want to be in this guy's phone?
Dan: Right. Exactly. And so I had a moment of worry. And so, I responded without saying who I was and he went to ground. He never responded to that. I was like, "Ah, dammit. I've chickened out."
Dan: And it was I think right around that point that a few different people ... Ah, Dexie's squeaking away. Dexie's excited about this story.
Maureen: She got the squeaky fox. Sorry. She knows the right time to get Mr. Squeaky Fox out. Everything has happened while we have been making this podcast. Like every single noise, every single substance. Sorry.
Maureen: Go. Keep talking, Dan.
Dan: So it was right around this point where a few different people posted screen grabs to Twitter of them basically prank calling via text Rudy Giuliani. So like his phone number was out there. And I was just like, "Ah, I did not shoot my shot. And this phone number's going to dry up. Like why would he keep this phone number if other people are pranking him on it?"
Maureen: Why, Dan, why?
Dan: Yeah. And so, I gave up. Plus I got very busy with impeachment.fyi and keeping track of all of the hearings and everything like that.
Dan: And then, the hearings wrapped up last week. And I was laying in bed and I decided, "Wait a second. I can burn the phone number that I texted Rudy on and I can start anew because that's one of the features of burner. You can just kill a number and get a new number."
Dan: So it's 11:21 pm and I sent Rudy a text on a brand new phone number. So fresh, he has no history of this number.
Maureen: Oh my god.
Dan: It just says, "One question, Rudy. Why were you all risking so much on Joe Biden? He never in a million years was going to win the nomination, yet you've put the presidency at risk over him. Why bother?" And then a second text right after that just says, "I can't imagine a less threatening person to run against than Biden. Why expend so much energy, burn so many people, and put so much at risk over him?" Right?
Dan: And this is a question that I have asked myself a lot. And I just threw it out into the ether at 11:00 o'clock at night.
Maureen: Yeah, you just chucked it out into the universe.
Dan: Yeah. Of course, no response, right. The next morning I am getting my kid ready for school. I think I got back from that. Janice went out on a run. And I noticed a notification icon pop up on my phone that I did not recognize. And I'm what is this? Then it's like, "Oh, that's the burner app. What?" And then there is a response.
Dan: "There is compelling evidence that he bribed/extorted the President of Ukraine. His crimes ignored does permanent damage that does the credibility of the US particularly in dealing with corruption. We must be able to show we can prosecute Democrats on the same basis as Republicans."
Maureen: You guys. This is an exclusive.
Dan: What the fuck?
Maureen: That's also deeply crazy but okay. So now we've move on ...
Dan: I think I then DM'ed you.
Maureen: Oh, yeah. You're like, "What do I do?" And I ... once I read it, I kind of read it, I danced around my apartment for a couple minutes. I got the squeaky fox. Give me this. Give me squeaky fox. And I lost my mind.
Maureen: So just to unpack this for a second. Had that narrative yet entered the mainstream? Is that he was trying to blackmail Ukraine?
Dan: The President of the Ukraine. I don't know if that is still in the actually narrative right now.
Maureen: So, we might actually have an exclusive.
Dan: Well, I mean except that it's just fucking rubber glue shit that they always do. Because literally all of those hearing was about President Trump attempting to bribe the President of the Ukraine.
Maureen: Sure.
Dan: So, it's like what fucking looking glass we're through. Anyway.
Maureen: What happened next?
Dan: So I respond. I say, "Why set up a skunk works outside the normal channels for this? You can't really demonstrate what you're saying if it's all happening off books."
Dan: Again, not expecting a response, Maureen Johnson, because why the fuck would you respond? It makes no sense to respond. But quickly, "Who is this? You seem to have no real understanding of the importance of the evidence here to the defense of the President or vindicating the equal administration of justice as part of the President's Article 2 Section 3 responsibilities. But any further communication will be based on your identifying yourself."
Maureen: I can't breathe. So did you, Dan?
Dan: So, I decided fuck it. And responded, "Dan Sinker, independent journalist. Why get the aid all tied into this? Seems messy." Rudy responds ...
Maureen: I can't believe this is real but it is.
Dan: "This is about evidence to defend him from my point of view. And for him his responsibility to take care the laws affecting the highest levels of two governmental are fully executed and not corrupt. Art. 2, Sect. 3 US Const."
Maureen: That's just jibberish.
Dan: Yes. I ask again, "But why hold up the aid if it's about defending the President? Exposed him to exactly the attacks we're now seeing." He says, "No one held up aid. No one. There was and are no conditions. President's statement was unequivocable."
Dan: And I'm assuming he's referring to the statement that Gordon Sondland testified to where he asked the President ... now granted this is afterward that the aid has already been held up, is out, right. Has been reported on. Gordon Sondland asks him and he says, "I don't want anything. There's no quid pro quo. I just want," I believe the full quote is, "I want nothing. I want nothing. No quid pro quo. I just want Zelensky to do the right thing." Which, come on.
Maureen: Right. Nothing that people say.
Dan: But anyway, he saying that no one held up aid. And I say, "Wait, the statement was made while aid was already being held up." So then he responds, "This is ridiculous. Identify yourself properly. Otherwise this is a waste of time. This is coup based on an entirely normal conversation interpreted by those who are driven by bias."
Dan: Then he responds again, "I had nothing to do with aid. And it had nothing to do with meetings or investigations. Even confused Sondland said he never heard anyone say it. Pres, me or anyone else. So read Transcript because I do. This is last communication since you have not explained who you are and your questions suggest superficial knowledge of Transcript." Also, he capitalizes T on transcript every time.
Dan: "There is simply no evidence of a connection but surmised contradicted by direct testimony. Surmised is in admissible, direct evidence is not. Thank you. I hope you understand very busy and must communicated where it gives some chance of productivity and balance."
Maureen: Very busy.
Dan: Very busy.
Maureen: So busy, that he's exchanging incredibly long, weird, detailed text messages with someone he does not know.
Dan: To a phone number that he has no record of ever communicating with before.
Maureen: Have we heard confused Sondland as one of these nicknames yet?
Dan: No. No, we have not. That was a new one.
Maureen: I'm wondering if that's about to come down the pipeline. Is this the first appearance of confused Sondland?
Dan: Oh, Maureen Johnson. I've hit the number a couple of times since and he does not reply anymore.
Maureen: Dan, start a new number.
Dan: Clearly.
Maureen: Just do a new number. Just do it.
Dan: Oh god, Maureen Johnson. Why is the President's personal attorney replying to text messages?
Maureen: I think it's the same reason he texted the other day something that just said, "Truth alert. If anything happens to me I'm going to release this information that I say I have anyway that I want released anyway but doesn't exist."
Maureen: Dan, I cannot believe that we have an exclusive bit of news.
Dan: I don't know that it's news. But it's definitely an exclusive.
Maureen: It's an exclusive. Dan texted with Rudy Giuliani and Giuliani told him that Biden was attempting to corrupt Ukraine.
Dan: It's fucking so stupid. It is so stupid, Maureen.
Maureen: I looked at the Article 2 Section 3 ... there's a bunch of stuff in there ... but the only one that applies is like, "President must see to it that laws are obeyed." Which is not really Trump's strong suite but that's ...
Dan: Also, does not apply to Ukraine.
Maureen: No.
Dan: The US Constitution has no applicability in Ukraine at all.
Maureen: No, it doesn't.
Dan: I cannot stress enough how fucking madness it is.
Maureen: Dexie is trying to eat this. Hold on, I've got to ... Come here. Give me this. Give it to me. Don't eat that. I've got to climb over here, Dan. Don't eat that. Come here, don't eat that. Give it to me.
Maureen: We're a professional news organization, Dan. Just talk to him again when he's a little drunk.
Dan: Oh, god.
Maureen: Text him.
Dan: I don't know how I feel about it. I don't know, Maureen.
Maureen: Dan, do it.
Dan: He is about to get ... He is moments away from being indicted.
Maureen: He's drunk, he's got his phone. Dan, just do it.
Dan: I'm not doing it right now because, Maureen Johnson, we are on the eve of Thanksgiving. We have a table to set, we have appetizers to get in the oven, and we have a guest who's probably on her way right now ...
Maureen: Yeah, she's probably one her way.
Dan: ... with a main course. We've got to get to it, Maureen. It's time for a very merry Says Who? Thanksgiving.
Dan: Hey, Maureen, are you making the little decorative napkins?
Maureen: I am making a little fortress out of forks over here. It's called a forktress and I'm just going to arrange this.
Dan: Okay, well then I'm going to do the napkins and I'm going to make them all look like ghosts, okay?
Maureen: All right.
Dan: That sort of just means a blob of ... Oh, wait, that's the doorbell.
Maureen: Okay, go get it.
Dan: Hey, Helen.
Helen: Am I late?
Dan: No, you're right on time. We were just finishing getting the table dressed.
Maureen: Yeah, Dan was getting it haunted and I was making a forktress.
Helen: How beautiful. I hate a naked table. I really do prefer when it's dressed.
Dan: I know.
Helen: So I feel so welcomed into your well-dressed table filled home.
Dan: Well, happy Thanksgiving, Helen Rosner.
Helen: Happy Thanksgiving, Dan Sinker.
Maureen: And what's this? You brought some food with you.
Helen: I did. Brought you a poorly cooked turkey.
Maureen: Ah, yay. Is it kind of pink inside?
Helen: It might be. I dredged this one up from my ... So, you know, I have this weird inability to remember anything about my childhood. And I was recently asking my dad about memorable Thanksgiving memories, I guess. You know, like let me mine my life for content. And he reminded me of something that I'd completely forgotten, which was a Thanksgiving dinner that we went to when I was in my early teens at the house of some friends who lived near us in Chicago.
Helen: And they had this incredible idea to try to cook a turkey [inaudible] style by digging a hole in the backyard and filling it with hot coals and then sort of dumping the earth back in over the turkey.
Dan: Oh no.
Helen: And something went horrifically wrong and we ended up having a raw turkey for Thanksgiving even after 20 hours in the ground. So I brought that for you.
Dan: [inaudible 00:30:58], thanks I guess.
Maureen: Looks like a dirty raw turkey.
Helen: No, the dangers of overly ambitious cooking without sufficient personal and cultural grounding in what you're endeavoring.
Dan: The E. coli is balanced by a large amount of minerals.
Helen: Yeah. It has a built in post-Thanksgiving diet.
Dan: [inaudible] Thanksgiving, Helen.
Maureen: This is the food holiday and you are the food expert.
Helen: I'm one of them. Sure.
Dan: No, you are the. You're the food expert.
Maureen: The food expert.
Helen: The only one. It's true. Actually it's true. Anybody else who has ever said that they're a food expert was just full of shit.
Dan: Am I the only one among us that thinks that Thanksgiving is ... of the major holidays ... the most trash of all of the holidays.
Maureen: Oh, I'm 100?% with you.
Helen: I'm going to need both of you to explain this to me because I love Thanksgiving profoundly with my heart.
Dan: Oh, good.
Helen: And I also love trash things. I mean, I'm not trying to say that you can't love trash. But, no, it has literally never occurred to me that this is a trash holiday.
Dan: Really?
Helen: Please reel this in for me.
Dan: My general feeling is you have one of two choices. One is either to be stuck with family that you don't want to be stuck with. The other is sort of a found friend thing, which is wonderful, but you could do that anytime.
Dan: And there's all this pressure put around about making this kind of set bunch of food ... none of which is the best of food ... and I'm not a huge fan of it.
Dan: At my house, we have sort of practiced extreme alternative Thanksgivings for many years now.
Helen: Such as?
Dan: Our big thing is that we usually call it Thanksgaming and we usually just play board games all day.
Helen: Okay, that's great.
Dan: While we will agree to the basic bounds of turkey based dishes I don't think we have made a turkey in a decade or so. It's been a lot of tacos. It's been a lot of that sort of thing.
Helen: I think that sounds wonderful.
Dan: I am currently curing two gigantic turkey legs to make Disney World style smoked turkey legs that then we will rip up and put into mac and cheese.
Maureen: Okay, that sounds amazing.
Helen: Everything about that sounds great. Yeah. That sounds phenomenal. So far I'm not seeing the downside of Thanksgiving.
Dan: All right. I guess maybe I have a problem with the transition version. But Maureen, I'm curious about you.
Maureen: Well, I think that I associated it with being kind of bored and a little cooped up. Like I have kind of a smaller ... When I was a kid, we'd go to my grandmother's, there was more to it. But I think that basically I just have to tolerate this until I'd say usually like 6:00 o'clock on Thanksgiving night. At which point I bang my fist on the table and go, "Now is holiday season." And then I can take out all the stuff that I actually want to be doing.
Maureen: I also don't eat turkey and I hate football. I mean I hate it. I associate football with basically being cooped up against my will. I don't like short days. So it's like short days, food I can't eat, people yelling at each other while watching a sport I can't stand. And I'm trying to break myself free of these restrictions.
Helen: So, you know, I don't want to nitpick either of your definitions of Thanksgiving but I feel like with the exception of how short the days are ... which unfortunately I can't do too much about the axle tilt of the earth ... you have a lot of control over all these things that you don't like.
Helen: I don't know. I don't think I've ever watched a football game on Thanksgiving. I'm not saying every Thanksgiving I've ever had has been magical and amazing. But, you know, I think what kind of comes to the heart of it is this.
Helen: I'm going to back up on trying to tell you that your feelings are wrong. Because your feelings aren't wrong. But I feel like there's a difference between traditions and ritual. And maybe like definitionally there actually isn't but I'm going to impose one now.
Helen: Was that I think that specific traditions and be really stultifying and they can feel really alienating. And if you go into the history of American Thanksgiving it's obviously very deeply problematic, and colonialist, and violent.
Helen: But the core notion of having a ritual, no matter what the ritual is ... even if the ritual is something as simple and open to interpretation as today we sit down we the people we love ... is really special.
Helen: And even though, Dan, you said you can have dinner with the people you love. You can have dinner with your chosen family anytime. And you do, hopefully. But there is something I think really beautiful and really nourishing about an almost externally imposed force saying like, "Sure, we could do it any time. But today is the day that we definitely do it."
Helen: And we all come together and ... whether we're eating tacos or we're watching anything but football ... today is the day that we're all together as this sort of beautiful summer and autumn of the year tilts into the misery of darkness and winter. And we focus on feeling thankful.
Maureen: Well, my dog's into it.
Dan: Dexie's feeling it.
Helen: Dexie agrees with every word I'm saying. He knows.
Dan: See this is why you are the only food person.
Helen: That's not about food.
Dan: The thing that is interesting as you are talking is I am realizing kind of the way that we celebrate Thanksgiving at my house is actually something that I totally enjoy. But I think of it in opposition of real Thanksgiving. And that's "real Thanksgiving." But I'm probably not giving myself enough credit in that process.
Helen: And I think you can find ... a lot of us certainly do ... like you can find a lot happiness in rejecting things. You know?
Helen: A friend of mine said many years ago, and I thought about this forever. So I'm Jewish and I grew up Jewish and we didn't celebrate Christmas. And she said almost offhandedly like, "Growing up Jewish when you're a kid one of the biggest way that you define your identity as Jewish is we don't celebrate Christmas." And it's a super weird like negative identity. It's like, "Oh, that thing all of you are doing, I don't do that." And it's equal parts feeling really left out and also feeling really smug. And that's really powerful.
Helen: And as soon as she said it I both recognized my childhood self in it. But I also see so much of my current self with so many other things. And so yeah, I mean I think it's totally awesome to be like, "Fuck Thanksgiving. I do it my way" And a core tenant of my personal Dan Sinker Thanksgiving is this element of, "Fuck your normy Thanksgiving." That's great. Just embrace it.
Maureen: I like what you're laying down and I think I plan on doing that each year. And then, I kind of get busy and go, "Oh fuck it. What do we do?" And also, I'm married to an English guy so they don't even do it. So he doesn't care. So it's entirely on me to kind of reinvent the wheel if I want to do so.
Helen: Yeah. Well, I think also at the same time if you're not into Thanksgiving ... I promise despite cutting all my sentences off halfway they have conclusions ... whenever I have had to write about Thanksgiving, which pretty reliably is every single year. No, writing about Thanksgiving is the bane of every food writer's existence because just sort of every July you have to start being like, "Well, fucking hell. How am I going to get people excited about the same meal again?"
Dan: Oh, boy.
Helen: But the thing that I always come back to over and over again ... and I think a little bit of this is because I'm just sort of like a cheerful nihilist and a little bit of this is because I think that Thanksgiving gets this very strange cultural trappings of this massive super important meal that you have to plan out three days ahead, et cetera, et cetera ... which you super don't.
Helen: It's just a stupid meal. It's just dinner. And it doesn't have to be good and it doesn't have to be important. And if it isn't great or if it doesn't create super important lasting deep resonant memories, that's totally fine. It can be special if you want it to be and it can be special if it turns out to be special.
Helen: But it you're just like, "Whatever." It's okay. It's just dinner. You have it every other day.
Maureen: Helen, you're so freeing. You're just so right on. God, why isn't Helen just involved in everything, Dan? I don't understand. Why isn't Helen just in charge?
Dan: I'm good with that.
Helen: Me too.
Dan: Helen, you're in charge now.
Helen: Terrific.
Maureen: You know what's on the menu this year? You know what's on the menu?
Helen: What?
Maureen: Peaches and mint. That's right. [inaudible] peach mint dinner. Really? You didn't have to laugh at that, Helen. You didn't have to laugh.
Helen: You're fired. I'm in charge right? You're fired from the show.
Maureen: Yeah, all right. That's fair.
Dan: My birthday was a couple of weeks ago and a friend of mine stopped by, and he had special ordered Japanese Kit Kats. Which I love Kit Kats. British Kit Kats specifically. Japanese Kit Kats get a little wild like these which were peach mint Kit Kats.
Maureen: I would eat the shit out of those.
Dan: They were wild tasting but I did appreciate that I got impeachment Kit Kats for my birthday.
Helen: Were they like produced as an intentional pun? Or were they actually just like ...
Dan: No, they're fully Japanese. Japanese Kit Kats are wild flavor hole that you can descend down forever.
Helen: Oh yeah.
Dan: And I'm sure I'm not telling you anything that you didn't already know. But these were definitely not produced in Japan as a funny play on words. They just happened to exist. This is a weird flavor combination.
Helen: Someone was like this is a legit flavor that I'm going to create a chocolate facsimile of and wrap wafer cookies in it. That feels like ...
Dan: Yeah, it kind of tasted like eating two flavors of toothpaste at once.
Helen: Oh, you're really selling it.
Dan: They were addictive though. The first one was like, "This is weird." And then it was like, "I need a second one to see if this actually weird." And then you eat the second one and you're like, "Still seems a little weird but maybe I'm," ... And then you were suddenly like, "I'm through the bag."
Maureen: Yep, I'd eat that.
Helen: Yeah. I've been on that journey, yeah.
Maureen: But Helen, a lot of people this particular holiday season maybe sitting around tables with family members who love Trump. And then they're going to be sitting there trying to keep themselves from putting a fork into their eye.
Maureen: So, do you have any advice for how to handle those moments around this table of festivity?
Helen: I mean you could dissociate. You know, I don't.
Maureen: I don't think that's ever been offered as advice before and I find it very exciting. Have you considered just dissociating?
Helen: Just cultivate an ability to detach yourself from your sense of reality and hang out. No, I have no advice. I feel like ... as you have sort of noted ... I have a fairly laissez-faire attitude towards like what you serve at Thanksgiving, and your emotional relationship to holidays, and do whatever the hell you want kind of stuff.
Helen: But I am very fortunate not to have any of the people that I share Thanksgiving with be folks who I don't largely agree with on most political issues. And so, I have not had to face this. And I imagine it's heartbreaking and infuriating. And I don't have good advice. I don't know.
Maureen: I don't know. Dissociating was surprisingly good advice. I mean, I had a friend who used to have a terrible housemate and who used to just sit by his door at night after getting in fights with her boyfriend ... who also lived in the house ... and just cry and scream. And the only way he got through it was every time she tried to talk to him about the boyfriend he would do this in his head. [inaudible]
Maureen: And I was like, "How do you live with her?" And he was like, "Because when she tries to talk to me about that I go [inaudible] in my mind." And it's actually pretty solid advice. It works. I've tried it. You can't do it out loud but you just, "The thing about Trump and the fake news." [inaudible]
Maureen: It'll get the job done. It'll do. It'll do in a pinch but soft.
Helen: I like that specific, yeah.
Maureen: Well, the President will also be having this Thanksgiving dinner down at Mar-a-Lago this year, as he does every year. We do not have the menu but we imagine. What do you think might be on the President's ... I mean, we don't want you to ... I realize you are an esteemed reporter and I don't want you to talk about things you can't verify but do you have any guesses, Helen, on what might be on the President's Thanksgiving menu?
Helen: I would put large amounts of money on the fact that he's going to be eating some form of beef and some kind of potato. And some kind of vanilla ice cream with chocolate sauce on top for dessert.
Dan: That sounds right to me.
Maureen: Dan felt strongly that there would be like a shrimp cocktail in there.
Helen: Does he eat shrimp cocktail? Is he into that? I'm super obsessed with shrimp cocktail lately. That's like my big Thanksgiving advice to everyone is like make some shrimp cocktail because it's super easy and knocks everyone's socks off.
Helen: And if Donald Trump is going to ruin shrimp cocktail for me that's another one to the list.
Dan: It's definitely been on every like buffet based menu that he has had is a shrimp cocktail at the start. But is he in fact getting them? It feels 80s enough that that may fall into this flavor gamut. Though fish generally ... as we have discussed before ... seems far outside of his abilities.
Maureen: Well, I was reading a list of the food he likes and he does like shrimp and crab. He likes those two.
Dan: And he does like the filet-o-fish. We know that.
Helen: Yeah, he likes ketchup.
Maureen: Yeah, he does like the filet-o-fish.
Helen: Well, you know, I didn't let him ruin the wedge salad for me so I'm not going to let him ruin the shrimp cocktail.
Dan: Uh-oh.
Helen: He can't take that from me.
Dan: Now we have some trouble at our Thanksgiving table.
Maureen: I'm not saying a word to cousin Helen.
Helen: That's that old wedge salad fight already.
Dan: Oh no.
Maureen: It's just the geometric food.
Helen: It's a salad that you get to cut yourself. It's an activity.
Maureen: I don't know. It's what you eat if you can't get any particle board I guess. Just fibrous chunks of something.
Helen: But Maureen, what do you like?
Maureen: What do I like?
Dan: Just generally.
Helen: What's a food that you like?
Maureen: Oh, I like a lot of foods.
Helen: Yeah.
Maureen: I like more foods than I don't like.
Helen: I know that you're still not naming any though.
Maureen: Well, I need a category because there's too many foods in the world.
Helen: So you don't eat turkey, which is totally fine.
Dan: I feel like I'm watching the impeachment hearings again.
Maureen: I will say that Thanksgiving foods I just ... again, they also aren't some of my favorite foods. Just like the general menu is like if I had a choice I would choose a different type of menu.
Maureen: Like I don't like stuffing. I think stuffing is gross.
Helen: Cool.
Maureen: Mashed potatoes are fine, especially if they've got garlic or pesto or something in them. That's makes them a lot better. I get like a vegetarian roast every year and I'll eat all the roast vegetables. And I love some roasted Brussel sprouts. I could eat buckets and buckets of cranberry sauce. Just keep spooning that in.
Maureen: I don't like candied yams. I prefer yams just straight up baked. Like a baked yam with butter is a delicious perfect food. And, yeah, I just don't like them over-sweetened. Because I think they're perfect like they are. Although my mother does make a casserole with sweet potatoes that is quite delicious but I like to eat it for dessert like a sweet potato pie.
Helen: Is it that like fluffy one? The fluffy sweet potato casserole that's basically like pie filling?
Maureen: A little bit yeah. It's sort of similar.
Helen: Yeah.
Maureen: She also makes a pineapple that's almost like a pineapple souffle side dish that's amazing.
Dan: Whoa.
Helen: Wow.
Maureen: Yeah, I like that for dessert too. My sweet stuff has to be dessert. I feel pretty strongly about that.
Maureen: What do I like to eat? For example yesterday I was like I need to make a sandwich. And I dug around. And what I had was some rye bread and hummus. And then I just put rye bread and hummus, and a whole shit ton of kimchi on there. And I had that.
Dan: Ah, yeah.
Maureen: And it was sensational. So I think there should be kimchi on everything.
Helen: So are you into the cabbage kimchi? I'm really obsessed we cucumber, and radish, and daikon kimchi. Those are my favorites. I love those.
Maureen: Yeah, if I can get them vegetarian. And there's a stall at the Union Square green market that often sells different types of whatever she's got that day that is like a vegetarian one.
Maureen: I love a cabbage. You know the standard. I could just sit there and all sauerkraut, kimchi. I like sour foods and vinegar foods and all funny colored desserts. So your greens, your blues like anything that looks ridiculous I'm like give me that. Give me red cake and blue pudding. And never met a dessert I didn't like.
Helen: I mean that sounds like an amazing Thanksgiving lineup. I feel like you should just follow your heart and have a table groaning with a variety of fermented cabbages on one end. And on the other end just like the panettone rainbow of mousses and puddings.
Maureen: Can I have a unicorn cake?
Helen: Yes, you can.
Maureen: Okay. But I have been so excited your coming, Helen, because I've been really dying to play another round of the game that we invented for you. And I have been thinking about this like nonstop. So if you don't mind, could we play a round of Would Trump Eat it?
Helen: Yes. No, wait. I do not mind, yes, we can play the game.
Dan: Appreciate your clarifying there.
Maureen: Ready?
Helen: Yes.
Maureen: All right. Tomato soup?
Helen: Yes. Yes, I think he would. I think it's ketchup adjacent.
Dan: Yeah, it's like a bowl of ketchup.
Maureen: All right.
Helen: A bowl of hot ketchup with cream in it.
Dan: Clam chowder?
Helen: Yes. I'm going to go we yes and he would probably eat around the actual bits of chewy clam. But it's basically potatoes, and heavy cream, and salt. And I think that he likes those things.
Maureen: *Manhattan clam chowder?
Helen: Oh, it's like a hybrid of the previous soup. I'm going to go with no. I don't have a rationale but it just doesn't feel like him.
Maureen: Lime sherbet?
Helen: No.
Maureen: Oh, really?
Helen: Yeah, it's too acidic.
Maureen: Tiramisu?
Helen: It has booze in it and coffee, which he doesn't drink coffee, right? He drinks diet Coke.
Dan: Yeah, that's his ...
Helen: I feel like tiramisu's a no. I think the dominant flavors in that are all things he doesn't like.
Dan: What about a fruit smoothie?
Helen: I don't know. Maybe like under duress.
Maureen: Like the doctor comes in and says, "Sir, if you want to live you have to drink this pineapple smoothie."
Helen: No, I'm not seeing it. I don't feel it. Dexie disagrees.
Maureen: Yeah. She's like, "I love a fruit smoothie." Lentil soup.
Helen: No.
Dan: You're really focused on the soups.
Helen: And liquid things in general. We're not chewing today. That's what we're not doing.
Maureen: Okay. Fajitas?
Helen: No, just on racist principle he probably would not. I shouldn't say that should I?
Dan: Oh, I feel like he would. I feel like a fajita ... I mean it's basically a steak, right? And we know he's eaten a taco salad.
Helen: No, I'm going to irresponsibly drop my conspiracy theory. I don't think he ever ate the taco salad. I think it existed primarily and entirely as a photo and entirely as a photo op.
Dan: Yeah, I believe that.
Maureen: I don't think he ate it either.
Helen: I just don't think he ate a taco salad. There's actually like seasonings and flavors involved in a fajita that are not just like sugar and fat. And I think that that would be ... Also, it sizzles. That might disorient him. There's a lot going on.
Maureen: Butternut squash?
Helen: No.
Maureen: Sorry, I'm back on what you just said. I just imagine it coming to the table and it's like, "What the shit? What is this? It's talking to me. It's sizzling."
Dan: It's alive.
Helen: It's like food that hisses back.
Maureen: I love John Mulaney, the comedian, and he has a line about how he used to watch television when he wasn't supposed to. And he would turn it off and he said, "And that TV would still be sizzling like a glass of Pepsi." I cannot stop thinking about that. It's just the greatest thing to say.
Helen: That's so good.
Maureen: And the way he's kind of reacting to it. Like, "Sir, don't touch it." "Ah, but you put something on the table I'm not supposed to touch. What the shit is this?"
Maureen: Yogurt dressing?
Helen: If he's not told that yogurt is the base then yes. Yes, I think that's about deception?
Maureen: Dill, just full stop. On something.
Helen: By a handful?
Maureen: On salmon, on something.
Helen: Yeah, I think so. I think it shows up with enough frequency in your creamy salad dressings that I think that he could probably handle a little bit.
Maureen: And the very last one. Just a cup of hot tea?
Helen: Oh, no, totally not. No, absolutely not. Never. Absolutely not.
Maureen: I liked how thoughtful you got though.
Helen: Well, I went through this sort of ... Like my mental journey was like, "Well, first like is it herbal or is it not?" And then it's like, "Well, does it really matter?" Can you imagine him seeking comfort in a way that so obviously communicates the need for comfort.
Helen: I think that he probably holds some very bizarre opinions about what sort of person drinks tea. Like you know how he wildly does not understand what a dog is and what dogs do when he refers to other people? And he's like, "He like jumped up and down like a dog." And these things that he just doesn't understand. And I feel like he probably also does not understand what tea is and who drinks it.
Dan: Hard agree there, for sure.
Maureen: Now we're sitting at a table with him where he's been given fajitas and a cup of tea and he's just freaking out all over the place. He's just losing his shit. He doesn't know what to do.
Helen: Yeah, just losing his mind at these fajitas.
Maureen: Wait, one more.
Helen: Okay.
Maureen: Cotton candy?
Helen: No, because he's a fork and knife guy.
Maureen: It's gross. It's also gross.
Helen: Well, no, can you imagine eating ...
Maureen: It's like a spider web.
Helen: It's not gross. It's delicious. It's sugar with air in it.
Maureen: An ingredient should not be air.
Helen: But no, because he's a fork and knife guy always. And I don't think you could fork and knife cotton candy.
Dan: Yeah.
Helen: You could maybe try to twirl it like spaghetti. But I think it's just a physical impossibility.
Maureen: This the very last one.
Helen: All right, yeah.
Maureen: Unicorn cake.
Helen: No, fuck it. That's yours. He can't have your cake.
Dan: He can't have your cake. Helen Rosner, thank you so much for coming to our Says Who? Thanksgiving.
Helen: Happy Thanksgiving. Thank you for having me.
Maureen: And thank you for the casserole.
Helen: You're very welcome.
Dan: And for the undercooked turkey.
Helen: I just want you to be happy.
Dan: Never happier than when I'm running in and out of the bathroom.
Helen: Just bring a good book.
Dan: Maureen Johnson, I like Helen Rosner so much.
Maureen: Text Rudy for Helen.
Dan: I just ...
Maureen: Come on.
Dan: See now that you know, you're never going to stop.
Maureen: Yeah. Come on.
Dan: I could just give him your number?
Maureen: Oh, give him my number?
Dan: I could give you his number. You could do it.
Maureen: I don't want to talk to Rudy Giuliani. What am I going to tell him. "I'm Maureen Johnson. I'm a YA author."
Dan: Yeah. Maybe he has questions about YA things.
Maureen: "What do you really think? What was your favorite Twilight book?" That's the kind of reference he would give because it's like, you know. Not sorry. Not even a little bit sorry, Dan.
Dan: Says Whovians? Says Who? is made possible by you.
Maureen: Wait, I've got a question.
Dan: Yeah?
Maureen: I've got to stop you. This is a real question. Because we've talked about maybe a project or something. And so, I want to put a question out into the ether for Says Who?, especially since I'm down in Philly. So my mother, since retiring, as worked at ... she's helped serve at a community kitchen in Trenton New Jersey in very underserviced community.
Maureen: This soup kitchen is based out of a church. It's a part of the church's mission but it's not like a religious thing. Like anybody can come eat the food.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: And a lot of elderly people come. For a lot of the people that come, that's the only kind of complete hot meal they get a week.
Maureen: She says one man comes because that's that's the only cup of coffee he gets. And he really likes getting a cup of coffee. And they also pack up extra perishable foods for their customers ... they call them their customers ... to take home.
Maureen: And she said one day they had some extra eggs. And that's like a really valuable one. So they packed up the eggs and this older man was excited to have his eggs, but he accidentally dropped a couple and he started to cry because he had lost his eggs. And they also have a kitchen ... a pantry ... to help feed the community. And she said she got there the other week the line was all the way around the block.
Maureen: They only had 10 turkey's to give away. That somebody had given them 10 turkeys. The pantry was empty and all they had left to give people for Thanksgiving was bean. Especially with the Trump administration a lot of cuts in funding mean a lot of these people are straight up very hungry.
Maureen: Elderly people, children, families. It's particularly hitting the elderly very hard. And I have been thinking nonstop about ... and that's where I give my money, to the kitchen and to the pantry. This place is literally just people from this church doing it. Like if you give them $20, they take $20 to the store and make it stretch to feed like 10 people or 20 people. They buy spaghetti, they by spaghetti sauce. They do whatever they can.
Maureen: This is a real genuine almost literal hand-to-mouth operation. And in order for them to survive the winter, they need money but they don't need such a tremendous sum. For example, raising $5,000 could go a long way to filling the pantry.
Maureen: And I feel like just through Says Who's? collective mind we could maybe figure out a good organized way to get that money. And I just wanted to kind of put that teaser out there to you guys because this is my goal is to by Christmas to get them the money to fill up their pantry for the winter.
Dan: I love it.
Maureen: And I feel like by talking to Says Who U? about this goal, maybe we could get a good way to organize it. Because literally when you send the money to the church, the pastor [inaudible] gets in the van, they go to the store, the store gives them a good deal on some groceries and they just get whatever they can.
Maureen: But these people are hungry and they have no overhead. Zero. Like this pantry is being run out of a back room with a metal shelf in it. And my mom's one of the people putting the food on the plates.
Maureen: So that's the kind of mission I want to put out there. If we can get maybe some ideas on how to organize or how to get some money in and then make the donation. That's just what I want to put out there.
Maureen: I want to put that energy out there because these people are hungry. And I feel like maybe that would be a great community project.
Dan: That seems entirely achievable. Says Whovians ...
Maureen: Yeah, especially Thanksgiving, hopefully, all of us have enough food to eat. But when they're going in there they're scratching around there like, "Here's a can of beans. This is all we can give you."
Maureen: Or if you're crying because you dropped an egg or a potato then something's wrong. So, yeah. So that's my goal.
Dan: All right. Let's make it happen.
Maureen: I feel like I hijacked that podcast there for a second.
Dan: And I don't know how to follow it up.
Maureen: You don't.
Dan: But I will follow it up by saying Says Who? is made possible by you through your support of our Patreon at patreon.com/sayswho. We are in the final throws now of finalizing the map of Says Whovia with the amazing artist that we commissioned to make it happen.
Maureen: It looks so good.
Dan: Oh my goodness. It's really pretty amazing.
Maureen: Amazing. Yeah, we took some of that Patreon money and paid an independent artist for her time and her work. So we like that.
Dan: Oh man, I cannot wait to share it with you. We will be sharing some images of it on Patreon. I slipped one tiny one into Twitter last week but we will have some more complete images of it coming onto Patreon soon at patreon.com/sayswho.
Dan: You know, Maureen Johnson, I am thankful for people that have made this podcast happen. I am thankful for Ted Leo who generously gave us our theme music lo those many years ago. And it continues to make me happy every time I hear it. Thank you, Ted Leo.
Maureen: He's never regretted it. Hopefully.
Dan: Well, he probably has.
Maureen: He probably has.
Dan: And I am incredibly thankful for Darth who made our very first logo.
Maureen: We miss you.
Dan: Who is right now ...
Maureen: In hibernation. Darth is in hibernation.
Dan: ... in hibernation. But rest well friend Darth. You are the grest. We love you.
Maureen: The grest?
Dan: I don't know what that was. I don't know how that happened.
Maureen: Thank you to Rudy Giuliani who has provided us a lot to think about this week.
Dan: Dear god. Oh boy.
Maureen: Thank you to Dan who will be texting Rudy in about another two and a half hours.
Dan: No, I'm not. I'm not doing that for Thanksgiving.
Maureen: After happy hour he'll be sending him a little, "Hey, it's me. Daniel Sinker."
Dan: Oh boy. You can contact us at Says Who? podcast on Twitter. You can email at Hey ... that is H-E-Y ... @sayswhopodcast.com.
Dan: You can join the discussion or just see photographs of Thanksgiving themed guinea pigs on Facebook at /groups/sayswhovians. Our Facebook group is moderated by Janice Dillard.
Dan: If you enjoy Says Who? first of all, you should subscribe to it through the podcast listening application of your choice. And you should review it. Leave stars and reviews especially on Apple podcast because they are the mafia of the podcast world. Or wherever you listen. It really does help and it is incredibly wonderful to see reviews come in. So consider doing that.
Dan: And consider joining us next Wednesday, December 4th ... I cannot believe that it is December next Wednesday ... for our next episode.
Maureen: Sure is, Dan. Well we have more ... Dan, in all of this, we didn't even talk about the impeachment hearings like what happened on Thursday and ...
Dan: Well, the good news is, Maureen, they are starting back up again on December 4th in the judicial committee now. So there's a brief respite and then they keep going. And if you want to stay abreast what is happening in the impeachment especially when it's not on your TV every day. Subscribe at impeachment ...
Maureen: Try impeachment.fyi.
Dan: Exactly.
Maureen: So proud of myself.
Dan: Impeachment.fyi and you will get an email from me every day.
Maureen: Just like I do. And maybe he'll send you some little snippets of his conversations with Rudy Giuliani, America's Mayor.
Dan: From my basement in Chicago, I am Dan Sinker.
Maureen: And from Philadelphia where my dog is currently trying to eat a sofa bed and looked like she was about to pee on the floor, but then realized that we're a big girl and we don't pee inside, I'm Maureen Johnson.
Dan: And this has been Says Who?
Maureen: Who is this? I'm very busy. I can only reply to so many random numbers that text me.
Dan: Insane. It makes no sense, Maureen. None.
Maureen: It makes all the sense, Dan. Knowing this makes all the last three years make more sense than anything.
Dan: Oh shit, you're right.
Maureen: This has made more sense than anything I've heard.
Dan: Oh no.